Curse

Expherious · Jun 19, 2009, 05:21 PM // 17:21

As you all know dervishes are pretty much a second choice in terms of melee, healing and anything else and I was really hoping for a couple of dervish buffs this update but i guess not lol

and well I figure if we get enough people to QQ we could get dervishes buffed aswell (RoJ and Spawning power)

False Maria · Jun 19, 2009, 05:31 PM // 17:31

Dervs are like American soccer fans: Most people forget they exists and pitty them when they find out they do.

Seriously, though. I think it is because there isn't anything particularly wrong with Dervs. That is not to say that they are perfect but they just don't suffer from the problems Rits and Paras had. They are Meh.

I'm sure that after Anet addresses other major balancing problems, they will start making dervs more attractive (gameplay-wise; You male dervs still look ridiculous in a sweater and skirt).

Helix Dreadlock · Jun 19, 2009, 06:24 PM // 18:24

They just have tougher e-management, and no REAL purpose. Not many farms or anything. Great for running though.

Zealous Vow helps energy a lot, and you can use a vamp mod instead+mystic vigor for super heal xD

electropop · Jun 19, 2009, 06:32 PM // 18:32

I was hoping for a dervish buff as well....I guess not though, hopefully next time!
I really wish that as a dervish I would get accepted into groups for elite areas more often.

Verene · Jun 19, 2009, 06:44 PM // 18:44

As my Dervish is my main, I'd like to see a bit of attention paid to them, but really, they're pretty well balanced as a whole...or at least, they're not completely broken and/or plagued with problems.

Still, though. A bit of something would be nice.

Megas XLR · Jun 19, 2009, 07:07 PM // 19:07

Hahah, this reminds me of what I said in the Skill Balance update. No Dervish balancing in 6 or 7 months, we are the most balanced class ever!

I honestly chose Dervish as my first class because they look cool and used scythes (before I knew anything about Assassins and Warriors). I still stand by my choice because I'd rather go through the whole game with a character I like looking at (almost like some people make females) and feel like I can immerse myself into.

On the defense of Dervishes, they are really versatile and really good for people who like playing as one character but want to experience a lot of different roles. I'm not sure how they would be buffed, but I will be fine either way.

Braxton619 · Jun 19, 2009, 07:12 PM // 19:12

meh i still love war

hate dervs :P

Axel Zinfandel · Jun 20, 2009, 12:12 AM // 00:12

Dervishes do not need a buff

However they do need to be indirectly 'buffed' by the nerf of Scythe-based WE and Crit builds, because JUST like N/Rt, they do a better job at using a scythe then Dervishes do.

EDIT: I would like to see AoB rework though, as well as perhaps the 'rest' of wind prayers, because right now it's only used for Attacker's Insight and Zealous Vow.

Expherious · Jun 21, 2009, 01:18 AM // 01:18

It just really grinds my gears how Sins and Warriors are better with scythes then dervs, and their energy management is a joke unless the majority of the build is dedicated to energy management, what I've been finding lately is that dervs are better with other classes elites then theyre own (with the exception of mysticism) SKULL CRACK FTW!

shoyon456 · Jun 21, 2009, 03:14 AM // 03:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leet Tankur

meh i still love war

hate dervs :P

Right, and this really helps the discussion.

I've been used to being disappointed by Anet with my main being my Derv. Here are the specific things related to dervs that I think anet should look at in future skill updates:

Scythes- As mentioned before, aside from Avatars, generally Sins with high critical strikes warriors with Warrior's Endurance, or Ranger's with high expertise can all abuse scythes and their attacks.

Solution 1: a combination of reducing the effectiveness of expertise, critical strikes, and strength attributes with scythe attacks. And reserve the scythe's ability to hit 3 foes specifically for Dervs.

Solution 2: Again, reserve the scythes ability to hit 3 foes for Dervs only, but also STANDARDIZE the scythe's damage. This may be impossible to do, as I personally would be pissed that my gold 9-41 req9's would become obsolete over night. But in the best interest of the game, scythe's really should be somewhere like 15-35 or 20-30.

Mysticism- Avatar of Melandru should NOT cost 25 energy in PvE.

*Solution 1: The best case would be to move it to 20 EN for both PvP and PvE. The abuse of this skill in the beginning of NF made Anet nerf it into oblivion. If the pve/pvp skill split is utilized, they could at least reduce it to 20 energy for PvE

*Solution 2: Reduce it to 15 energy. Make it similar to Avatar of Dwayna. You gain 100 health and everytime you use a skill you loose 1 condition and deal 5...20 earth damage to all adjacent foes. This would fit in with the AoE use of the derv and put the skill in a more usable format. The fact that it is earth damage (affected by armor) and taking away the complete invulnerability to conditions may make this skill viable again. Just for the record, I see the earth damage as balanced because it only applies to directly adjacent foes and is not very significant.

Mysticism - Arcane Zeal - Currently with this skill you gain ONE ENERGY (max 1...6) per enchantment on you when you cast a SPELL. This skill COSTS 10 energy and only lasts 10 seconds. Dervish heals are not strong enough to devote a bar full of enchants and spamming Mystic Healing to have any legit effect on the team. Mystic twister does not have a low enough recharge (12 s) to synergize with this skill currently. The only niche build this has is for orders' dervs, and if you've ever actually TRIED the build Anet, its nearly useless unless your whole team is physical (even then, you'd probably get more out of having another physical).

*Solution: Rework wind prayers while making sure it does not become another aspect of dervs that other classes abuse to be more effective with this skill

*Solution 2: Reduce the energy cost to 5, make the energy gain 2 per enchantment, but keep the 1...6 cap, so that the energy gain is standardized and cannot vary from high to low. This will allow usage with less enchantments while keeping it from becoming extremely OP, and allow more build diversity so that you don't have to devote 5 or 6 skills on your bar for enchantments. For precedence, look at Pious Renewal, it is 5 energy, and gives 0...2 energy and 0...8 health when an enchant ends. Arcane Zeal is simply the opposite, when casting.

Wind Prayers - Grenth's Grasp - An elite enchantment that can be easily stripped and only causes cripple for 3...13 seconds when you use attack SKILLS is pitiful. Granted it is only 5 EN and has a 20 sec duration, this skill was obviously kept weak for fear of other classes exploiting it. Too bad anet was looking at the wrong skill line (*cough* scythe mastery). This skill is a pathetic excuse for an Elite version of Harrier's Grasp (which doesn't even need attack skills, they just need to be moving).

*Solution: 10 or 15 EN 1/4 cast 20 Recharge (30 second recharge for PvP)
For 10 seconds, everytime you cast an enchantment, foes in the area are struck for 10...30 cold damage and loose one enchantment.

This version would definitely be abused in PvP, and would need some serious PvP/PvE skill split to see the light of day. The truth is though, it is easily countered by a team spreading out, so it really introduces a need to play more thoughtfully instead of simply being OP'd. And remember, unlike the old Grenth's Aura builds, this is an ELITE SKILL that only activates on casting enchantments, so it should not be watered down to the level of that skill (2 second cast).

*Solution 2: 5 or 10 EN 1/4 cast 20 Recharge
For 10 seconds, everytime you cast an enchantment, foes in the area are struck for 10...30 cold damage and crippled for 5...10 seconds.

This version keeps the old crippled effect of Grenth's Grasp, while suiting it to the use of the Dervish. I do not believe this version requires the PvP split, as cripple is quite common in most PvP. I will suspect the cold dmg negligible. I do not know exactly how much damage this will do to caster classes on average, but I'd guess low 20's, and 15's on melee, and 10's on rangers. This new version of the skill might even introduce a serious reason to use Extend Enchantments.

Earth Prayers - Vow of Strength - Okay, so they changed this skill last year...now it gets even LESS use. Not only is it stupid and impossible to use in PvP b/c you're doing it wrong if the enemy does not have any conditions (not to mention most scythe attks cause conditions or rely on them), but even in PvE poison, burning, etc... are common and you're VERY lucky to get the +41% damage. The only skill that gets RID of conditions from enemies is crystal wave/teinai's crystals. Ive said it before, it doesnt matter if you can get +41% damage AND use attacks if you're getting the +41% between 0 and 10% of the time. Waste of an elite.

*Solution: 5 EN 1/4 cast 12 sec recharge
Elite Enchantment. For 6 seconds your next scythe attack does +5...36% damage and this enchantment ends.

This change to VoS still allows you to use attack skills in conjunction with the skill, and restricts it to scythe attacks so that it cannot be utilized by Dervish secondaries. This change also takes advantage Mysticism and the long dead concept of enchantment cycling.

Alot of the issues surrounding dervs are related to the fact that they have the least amount of skills and build options, being the latest class introduced along with paras. Here are some of my skill ideas that should have been present in derv skill lines.

Axel Zinfandel · Jun 21, 2009, 03:39 AM // 03:39

I'd like if the current VoS be kept, but instead of conditions, but either hexes

Or revert it completely, because honestly, we have PvE/PvP split D:

shoyon456 · Jun 21, 2009, 03:50 AM // 03:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axel Zinfandel

I'd like if the current VoS be kept, but instead of conditions, maybe hexes.

This would be a good change too, however I think the idea I outlined definitely takes full advantage of Mysticism.

Axel Zinfandel · Jun 21, 2009, 05:05 AM // 05:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by shoyon456

This would be a good change too, however I think the idea I outlined definitely takes full advantage of Mysticism.

It also sucks, and I'd never, ever use it as an elite. +35% damage for one attack is terrible.

shoyon456 · Jun 21, 2009, 05:25 AM // 05:25

Then I'd lower the recharge and duration. The point is not to have it for ONE attack, the point is that it will continually cycle through and be fairly spammable to use with attacks. I only reduced it to +35% in a balance caution, but I suppose it could go to at least +50% for this function.

Ferminator · Jun 21, 2009, 05:59 AM // 05:59

Too true that dervishes seem like the most balanced class around.

But yeah.. their weapon is better on war/ranger/sins. ('cept for mystic vigor 'screw monks, i got uber healing myself

')

I see why AoM has 25e but one death and you have 24e so good bye elite. Yes I would love to see an e reduction.

I want to see them in elite areas!

SuperCoha · Jun 21, 2009, 09:02 AM // 09:02

I took a look at your skill page.

Dervish Avatar of Earth (Earth Prayers)

25 En, 2 Second Cast, 30 Second Recharge

-Elite Form. For 1...50 seconds you cannot be knocked down or interupted. Your attack skills cause knockdown. This skill is disabled for 120 seconds.

I like

It would be super cool if they introduced new skills to those professions.. But I doubt it >: /

Bloody Dominator · Jun 21, 2009, 03:25 PM // 15:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuperCoha

I took a look at your skill page.

Essence Strike seems very usefull, great way to deal with prot monks and their enchants

Nice ideas

Axel Zinfandel · Jun 21, 2009, 05:56 PM // 17:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by shoyon456

Then I'd lower the recharge and duration. The point is not to have it for ONE attack, the point is that it will continually cycle through and be fairly spammable to use with attacks. I only reduced it to +35% in a balance caution, but I suppose it could go to at least +50% for this function.

Looking at it from a mathematical perspective, if you trigger max damage with a normal scythe attack using that VoS, your attack will only be boosted by 14 damage. for ONE attack. That's -if- you strike max damage. Sure it takes advantage of Mysticism, but in the second it actually takes you to -cast- the enchantment, and THEN attack, you could be doing a lot more damage by just plain attacking.

I'd like to say "just revert it" but the trouble is that critscythe sins would get more use out of it then Dervishes would.

Sirius-NZ · Jun 22, 2009, 04:15 PM // 16:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ferminator

I see why AoM has 25e but one death and you have 24e so good bye elite. Yes I would love to see an e reduction.

Take a staff with +15e or something in one of your weapon slots. You don't need to use it for actual combat obviously, but it'll let you cast AoM.

reaper with no name · Jun 22, 2009, 04:35 PM // 16:35

Honestly, I'm satisfied with my derv. I'm at peace with his non-mastery of the scythe. He should be the master of it, yes, but the three good derv builds(WS/RS, AoM, AoD) are enough to keep me happy. I guess I'm just happy it's not a completely redundant profession.

The essential problem with the profession, though, is that other professions use it's stuff better than it does. The best ways I can think of to fix that would be to nerf the other professions with regards to scythes, buff mysticism, or change AoHM in some way.

With Mysticism, I can think of a bunch of ways to buff it (increase enchantment length, give attacks some small life-stealing, increase the amount of health gained from enchantments ending, increase scythe attack rate). Most of them don't really make much sense, but then again, Critical Strikes makes even less sense (why on earth would landing a critical hit give you energy? At least mysticism is magic).

AoHM, though, that's an interesting one. It's on the bar of everyone who uses a scythe. What if, like Critical Agility and Elemental Lord, it's power scaled depending on the primary attribute? Like, what if it's duration was 8 sec + 1 sec for each rank of mysticism (which at 12 mysticism, would be the same as it is now)? Then, dervishes would once again be the best as using scythes, and would really have no critical need for any further buffing, because they would always have a niche as the best melee AoE.

An even crazier idea I thought of once would be to nerf AoHM down to the point that a conjure is just as good (or even better). Then all the primary dervishes would take conjures instead and do more damage, since the sins and warriors wouldn't be able to take a conjure. Of course, they'd have to make AoHM nearly useless in order for a conjure to be better than a sin with AoHM, way of the master, and critical strikes.